Women in Cybersecurity with SheSec Pakistan on The HackerNoon Podcast

Hi y’all, it’s your podcast host and best friend, Amy Tom

Woo woo, what an episode. On this episode of The HackerNoon podcast, I chatted with Misbah Fatima, Head of Security at Indenfo, and Farza Ashraf, Security Analyst at Idenfo. Both women are part of SheSec Pakistan, an organization that is a community that aims to uplift women in cybersecurity in Pakistan. I talked to Misbah and Farza about their experiences as women in cybersecurity.

One thing I was curious about was the difference between my experience (as a North American) and their experiences (as Pakistanis). One of my wonderful HackerNoon coworkers - Sidra Ijaz - (and a member of SheSec Pakistan as well) is from Pakistan I love to hear her stories about her life and culture. One thing Misbah mentioned on the podcast was about the culture of women in the workplace in Pakistan. There are fewer working women than working men in Pakistan and only around 10% of people in tech are female.

Another thing that I loved about this episode was that Misbah look my perception of women in Pakistan and tossed it out the window, haha. She said that growing up, she was always encouraged to reach for whatever career she wanted and she vowed from a young age to become the first female CISO in Pakistan. I admire her courage so much because it takes so much effort, strength, confidence, and will power to forge your own way.

I think you’ll like this episode of The HackerNoon Podcast. Until next time, stay weird and I'll see ya on the internet 😜

Girl, pull up a chair and take a seat at the head of the boardroom because we are talking about women in cybersecurity this week on The HackerNoon Podcast. Misbah Fatima (Head of Security) and Farza Ashraf (Security Analyst) from Idenfo and SheSec Pakistan talk about how we can increase the number of women in STEM.

On this episode of The HackerNoon Podcast:

• How did Farza get into tech and cybersecurity? 💃
• How did Misbah get her first job in the cybersecurity industry? 👩‍💻
• Is cybersecurity a good field for women to get into? 🤔
• How important is community building for women in cybersecurity? 👯‍♀️
• How can we increase the number of women in cybersecurity? ⬆️
• What advice do you have for young women who are trying to get their first job in cybersecurity? 🙏🏻

This episode is sponsored by Sonatype - the software supply chain security platform that reduces open source risk and minimizes exposure. Visit sonatype.com for more information.

Find Misbah and Farza online:

• Connect with Misbah on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/misbah-fatima-z-936a7617a/
• Connect with Farza on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/farzaashraf/

Learn more on HackerNoon:

• Read cybersecurity stories on HackerNoon: https://hackernoon.com/tagged/cybersecurity
• Read about how women change the cybersecurity industry: https://hackernoon.com/women-in-cybersecurity-how-diversity-can-help-combat-cyber-threats-hu2n3507
• Read about women in tech: https://hackernoon.com/tagged/women-in-tech

Podcast Transcript

Machine Generated, Please Excuse the Errors!

[00:00:01] Amy: This podcast episode is brought to you by Sonatype your software supply chain security platform. So just head over to Sonatype.com to find and fix critical security vulnerabilities and listen over 15 million developers trust zone to type. So if you are looking to develop smarter and not harder in a secure way, go over to Sonatype.com.

Seriously, you won't regret it anyways, onto the episode.

[00:00:34] Amy: Hi, hacker is welcome back for another episode of the hacker noon podcast. I have an update from last time we're recorded. I finished reading that book. Oh, my gosh, it is not a new age, shitty romance novel. It's a real story about how someone created a bid point exchange and then unexpectedly died.

And then, uh, the unraveling of their Bitcoin fraud. Um, I don't know how I missed this back in the day, but it happened and it was a riveting story. So do the. I'm sorry, I called your novel a shitty romance novel. Um, it's not a great piece of literature to be honest, but the story is riveting highly recommend.

It's called a bit going widower anyway is enough of that. Uh, I also want to say happy anniversary hackers because it's our one year anniversary of podcasting together. So, thank you so much. If you have been with me the whole year, I love you. And I appreciate you. Don't forget to leave me that review as a present, maybe.

Uh, but anyways, today on the show, I have some very lovely guests that I'm very excited to talk about. Cybersecurity with. I have Misbah who is the head of Security at Indenfo as well as further, who is the security analyst at Idenfo. So welcome to the podcast, guys. Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:02:08] Misbah: Thank you. 

[00:02:11] Amy: Well, why don't we start? Maybe Misbah. Could you introduce yourself and what more about what. 

[00:02:19] Misbah: Yeah, sure. So Ms. , um, I'm heading information security department at identical, so it's a FinTech. You give me a sense that, um, it's a startup. We are, we are in the industry for like, um, Almost. So, um, my job, my role, uh, was very difficult because I had to do yet the whole department from scratch.

Yeah. And which was not, you know, limited to one specific, uh, against the subject matter. We had to create different departments, established different rules, established a whole theme. Um, My background is, uh, I have like a mix. I have worked in different cybersecurity to mean that I've worked at a SOC analyst.

I worked as a GRC analyst. I worked in database and application security. So I have a worker worked around different cyber security domain. Then also in different industries. Like I've worked in military. I have run in military. And FMCG, and now I'm working in financial sector. Uh, I have been a part of SAC.

Uh, um, it's, it's, it's so great communicator community for a woman. Um, You work, not very high, but we work hard to, you know, um, bring all these, uh, women who are doing what thriving in their fields. And we bring them together in one single platform. And then. Checked, we just shared about security. So yes, that's me.

Uh, that's what I like to do. I like to work in cyber security. I like to work for women, so yeah. 

[00:04:06] Amy: Okay. Yes. Love that. We're going to get into she's like in a minute, I have questions, but first, far as that, could you tell me about who you are and what. 

[00:04:18] Farza: So far as when I grew up from Pakistan and I, I also walked in, I didn't put a security end of this.

I'm in the cybersecurity for like the last two years. And I have, I'm the one on the phone with them, but she's a father son. So my day to day job and things, you know, adjusting our organization. It was mix off. Saturday weekend was offensive side. It involves the 

[00:04:49] Misbah: GRC side is that 

[00:04:52] Farza: I am kind of, you know, jumping here in India in the organization and managing security fitness, but as you'll see, she is also my boss and she's heading to Dubai. So, yeah, just me from the bathroom perspectives, I'm telecommunication and Jr.

And I turned myself in the cyber cybersecurity profession, so yeah, that's 

[00:05:16] Amy: it. Okay. So the, the other thing besides. Um, your work that, uh, joins you together is that you're both with she sag and you're both based in Pakistan. So I would love to know a little bit more about the cybersecurity industry in Pakistan.

And what's that what that is like, maybe. Can you tell me, what is the mix between women and men in the cybersecurity industry in Pakistan? Would you 

[00:05:43] Misbah: say? Um, so women, uh, in Pakistan, I will come to cybersecurity, but if it, uh, if, if we talk about the tech industry, the career, like in person, and then we talk about, uh, you can say cyber security, I guess that would be like 5%.

So, um, we don't have a lot of, uh, Women in cybersecurity. And, uh, we don't have any woman as a CSO, you know, uh, right now at a Cecil CIS. So it's not very good. And, um, our goal is to, you know, change that, um, and, uh, So, so different. So in cybersecurity. So then we talk about cybersecurity in Pakistan. So it's been, uh, focused mostly by the banking sector.

And now other, the, you can say the medical industry, the FMCG is there also, you know, trying to, um, You can say being far forward in the race, but, uh, it's the, the cybersecurity industry it's, it's been, uh, led by banking industry and financial industry. And, uh, They are like, they are, you can say the most well-established, you know, when we talk about, they have all of these, uh, you know, rules and all of the domains in cybersecurity.

But when we talk about the other industries, like my agency, as in CDs or military, they have like in a 1% or two have two people responsible for all of these. So they, they would be your go-to person for application security and for creating all of those procedures and everything. So, uh, they are, they are in the developing state and, uh, the banking sector. It's more. 

[00:07:33] Amy: Right. Okay. 5% is very, very low though. Um, why do you think that there's such a low number of women? Is there a high barrier, higher barrier to entry into cybersecurity in Pakistan for women than men? 

[00:07:51] Misbah: Okay. So, um, I guess, uh, it's. Uh, right now the cybersecurity industry it's, uh, especially in Pakistan, it's kind of like very, not very, but it's newish.

Um, it's the, it, it, God, uh, you can say God females, it God, the theme and during the four being. And so there are very, uh, you know, fewer people than he can to ID in cybersecurity. So, I guess that's one of the reasons people are getting a weird, uh, now the universities are opening, uh, you know, cybersecurity as a bachelor as well.

So, so, so there's been some talk around it. We have our, uh, international information security policy, but, uh, Sometime, you know, and I guess with time there will be, uh, you know, the, there will be more awareness and with awareness, uh, people will, you know, get to know and they will, you know, be like, okay, yeah, I want this to be my career, but it's, I guess the biggest reason is that people are not earlier.

Number one and second theme could be, um, especially women. Um, I mean, Since there is like a lack of awareness, even for, you know, both male and female, I guess. Uh, it automatically by default makes a woman do you know, unless percentage because, uh, in Pakistan, uh, when we got through. The education. And then we compare the literacy rate, uh, with men to women.

It's all, obviously, you know, women are not that much educated, so it could also be, you know, one of the factors. Um, but yeah, number one is awareness. 

[00:09:41] Amy: Right. And far as out, when you were getting into cybersecurity, what was your experience like with the mix of like gender in terms of. Maybe your entry-level positions or like when you were learning in school, um, what was that like for you 

[00:10:01] Farza: and I didn't phase agenda, just because we made sure 

[00:10:08] Misbah: they were doing and I 

[00:10:11] Farza: wanted to get into the service.

So when I started, when I decided to. Well, I wasn't going in cybersecurity. Sally said I was, and I was going to be interviewing process and HR process. They ask you about certification. So this one real close. And then I faced. Although I had the engineering and this, I learned about networking security and I had the concept, but they always wanted to have some kind of, so like CS or other basic levels or which for me was expensive.

And I always thought, why do I need a certification as usual entry level job to get it into any position? Because I have my concept. Yes. I didn't invest myself in certain Asian, but yeah, when, and when there was no, you know, demand of Asian, they see it or other certification organization, one me, do you know what kind of free unpaid.

You know what the nine of excuses

you need to learn who I am to the mind, but I, I just, this was a challenge that I faced a lot 

[00:11:37] Misbah: back then. Yeah. But then I somehow figured out, 

[00:11:42] Farza: like I learned from here, then there's some, you know, basic foods and you'll see courses that you kind of. So I'm your Demi. And so that's how I polished myself.

Eventually I started off as a light dose and I started in cybersecurity and . Garden entry-level

into the security and this college. 

[00:12:09] Amy: Yeah. Okay. Wait, I want to ask more questions about getting your first job in cybersecurity, because like you don't have the certification. So you have to do your, what you were saying is to clarify is that you had to do your own cybersecurity writing and publicly or published yourself so that you could prove that you had enough skill to get your first job in cyber secure.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And what were you writing about at the time? So 

[00:12:37] Farza: I do see light. He knows some name that was some kind of, I used to like, uh, I cannot specify what I usually wear my face. I like, so one day. Pardon me and asked me if I, if I'm ready to die something. When I said there was a cybersecurity conference happening in Pakistan.

So he wanted me to voice I'm invested in school. And at that point, I thought that it's maybe not starting point for me to get into the cybersecurity. So I instantly said yes, and I started off fighting for their confidence and by the data conference was going on today. So there was a post that I found that discussion who came to know that I wrote everything.

And then he somehow managed to get a, get my details from the organizers. Get me on. I, and I, then they're going to cybersecurity consulting, farm phasing. So they always make far so, 

[00:13:40] Misbah: yeah. 

[00:13:41] Farza: So then I sit there, I used to drive dogs. I think the guy that she did kind of methodology processes where they say to them, And then there's social media posts the graphics.

So that's how I, you know, learn more and more about cyber security. And I, I must say that, uh, doctor siding really shaped me as a InfoSec enthusiastic. So I would say programs. Right, 

[00:14:15] Amy: but to help you get into that conference to get your first job, you had a connection, a male connection, though, that helped you get into the conference.

But I want to understand, like how important is community building, especially like amongst women in cybersecurity to help each other get jobs or like, is that, does that also play a role in, is that why she sec is an exist? I 

[00:14:39] Farza: believe everything is important for everyone and not just best for cybersecurity or for payment.

I believe it is important for everyone, me to me because when you communicate, people get to and people get to experience are scared of. You know, most of the time you get something from your connection. So when you talk about

brings them in the same platform, so you can say they can share their experiences, their skills, and inspire the demand and motivate fellows. So that, so I believe this is important. We knew each other and you know, in community, you collectively none. And you put it there, you collectively through a special, 

[00:15:33] Amy: right?

Yeah. Um, and do you think that without the advocation of she sec of other women to build each other up in the tech industry and the cybersecurity industry that we wouldn't have come this far.

[00:15:55] Farza: up there each other and where we have gone, we have

every week everyone is representing as like everyone is representing us. Whenever one, when women get on the, in the spotlight. Opens the door for other aspects will be inspired by then. We can move it by them that they tell you who it becomes a chain. It began to change. 

[00:16:24] Misbah: You see 

[00:16:27] Farza: a person who is going out and creating a door, opening a door for other person, or 

[00:16:35] Misbah: you can say, 

[00:16:38] Farza: oh, Um, I, I, I do not, I'm not getting the exact word for it, but yeah.

Well, whenever women, you know, achieve a milestone chains by the other men who are, who are doubting their selves while you are not believing in them so young. 

[00:16:58] Amy: Yeah, exactly. I think that's exactly how I feel as well in terms of like women and people in my community in cybersecurity and technology in general.

When I, uh, I like the support of the community because when I feel challenges or when I feel like I'm alone in experiencing something, then there's other people who are there to say like, no, we're here to like, that's real. We feel you. 

[00:17:25] Farza: Uh, exactly. So eventually, you know, when you see there's me who are doing, you know, biggest stuff, and there are so many gender discrimination in the world, Sometime, you know, you, you get into the self doubt and not believing in yourself.

Like you wouldn't see me, you cannot move this back. Then you see other women doing it. You, you know, you get this spark within says, like, if she's doing it, I can do it also. You know, even I, if, if maybe I might not be the best like her, but somehow I look at managing, you know, making some thing out of myself.

[00:18:07] Amy: Right. Yeah, I'm a mess, but I would love to hear from you then, like it, given this conversation, do you think cybersecurity is actually a good field for women to get into and would you recommend it to young women? 

[00:18:19] Misbah: Yeah, definitely. I think, uh, cyber security is a really good field, uh, for a woman because I feel we are very cute.

I mean, you know, we really, uh, love to know more and more. And for someone who is very curious, uh, you know, always calculates everything we ask to do research, uh, you know, irrespective of the gender for anyone. I think it's, it's an excellent field, uh, for, for someone who is naturally good at identifying all the possible scenarios of what could go wrong in any situation.

And you know, best. Yeah. So if you're an over thinker, you are going to do great things in information security, 

[00:19:13] Amy: overthinking over preparedness. Yes. Okay. Yeah, definitely. And also maybe like a little bit and touch into detail, like the little things like, okay. Yes. 

[00:19:28] Misbah: That's why I think cyber security makes, you know, I think it fits perfect for a woman, every woman should you.

And I at least tried to do something in it. They will do 

[00:19:38] Amy: winners. Yeah. And what was your experience like, uh, entering into the industry? 

[00:19:45] Misbah: So, okay. It was actually really interesting. Um, so I started at a software in January. I did my bachelor's in software engineering, so blah, blah, blah, you know, entry level job.

So in, in that domain around me, everyone was, you know, a guy. Developer. And so, so they they're tired. Uh, you know, they would transfer me and do some other department. And, you know, get their favorite person on my spot. And then they transferred me to information security department. Um, little, did they know?

I actually, when I, when I, you know, uh, when I started to read into it, my first, uh, project, while the ISO 27,000. And, uh, when I was like, okay, this is interesting. I want to do something in it. So I left software engineering and I enrolled myself in master's program. And that's how my career actually started.

And thanks to that guy who, you know, who drafted me into InfoSec. I I'm very thankful him, although his is more diverse, not in my favor, but it actually turned. It actually, I think if I, if I, if I had been in software engineering, I wouldn't be doing so good. Right. 

[00:21:07] Amy: Yeah. It's funny how these things work out. It's all about the people, you know. 

[00:21:13] Misbah: Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:21:16] Amy: Yeah. I know when you were in your master's program, what was that like? Was it also very male dominated in school? 

[00:21:25] Misbah: No, no, uh, officer, uh, so, so we had like 40 students in my class and I think as he had been 10 female and 30, so obviously they were more meal.

Um, so that's how every, em, every, except for Madigan schools, I guess there are more women in MBBS in medical schools, but when it comes to engineering or tech, they're always more male. 

[00:21:52] Amy: Okay, but that's like 25% as opposed to like the five, 10% that actually entered the industry. So where does the disparity come?

[00:22:05] Misbah: I guess the information security department. Uh, so you know, in Pakistan, uh, not everyone who go through the, you know, education, they ended up getting. A job. Yeah. Uh, especially when it comes to a woman that the society, the culture is quite different when we compare it to the west side. So this also going to New York, but another thing is definitely a woman feeds.

They there's more scrutiny. They are. Being judged more and it comes to meal. Um, so that also contributes a lot. Um, even in the master's program, uh, you know, our teachers, they don't usually give it to you, you know, they don't do. I think, uh, you know, from the first impression that you are, you are going to be someone, uh, getting the four bind or, you know, uh, making great projects and stuff.

So I, I have faced this a lot in my professional, uh, life as well as in my, you know, when I was, when I was getting the education, because this is how I was judged. I think most women face. Um, then, you know, this, this mindset that they would only be good at the documentation taking notes and stuff. Right. So, yeah.

[00:23:34] Amy: at what point did you realize then that you could do. The bigger thing. I 

[00:23:41] Misbah: think I realized it when I got my first job at, at a SOC analyst. I was working in Pakistan Navy. And, uh, so, so the environment there, although I was the only female, you know, I was the only one, um, there, uh, and we had a team of 30 or 40 and I was, you know, the only one representing my gender.

Um, they, uh, the, the. You know, the captain there, he actually was a nice person. He did not discriminate. He gave me enough room to, you know, prove myself, um, And I, so, so, so when I started making the rules, my first scene was curator and I, I knew nothing about it. And I know I put in the extra work, I used to come home research.

I used to, you know, uh, there was, uh, there was a little bit of competition, not little, a lot of competition with the other meal guys. Uh, It was very Hedy, you would say, but it gave me the most I needed because I always had this female Eagle with me because I wanted to prove them wrong that yeah, I can do it.

And, uh, uh, I presented in front of the, you can say the chief Naval staff, it's, it's a really big deal. They are heading the Navy, you know? So, so all of this gave me the confidence and all of this, you know, meeting. Who I am. And then I ended my second year and I was very confident by then. So yeah, the environment menders. 

[00:25:20] Amy: Let me tell you about this theory that I have about why there are not as many women in it in cybersecurity in general. Um, it's not like men are raised with the notion that they already can do those. Like right from the start, like at birth, they're like, yeah, you could be the CEO or, you know, the CSO or whatever.

Like they just inherently believe that they can't do that. And women, like you're going to be 25 and then going to be like, oh, I, that could be me. Wait me. So like, you know, you have lost so much time because of the society. Uh, the societal like norms and pressure, because you aren't born with the idea that you could be a CSO.

Do you resonate with that? 

[00:26:16] Misbah: I mean, I was born in the environment where this was not the mindset, but yeah, definitely. The schooling system or the arms and you know, how the people, you know, they have this mentality here and there. And, uh, um, I guess, uh, the environment I had it, it made me. I believe at. So my goal in an event in every interview, people ask, what do you want to do?

And the answering, I want to be the first female CSO in Pakistan. And, uh, because I wanted that and I wanted to do as early as I can. I, and that's what I had in mind, but for most of the woman, it might come a little bit late because of, you know, the, the environment they are born into. So it really, it really matters, uh, you know, the Hollywood.

Oh, they're bringing you up and 

[00:27:11] Amy: you know, but even still, so you still, you have to trail blaze your way through that. Like I'm going to be the first and like, they just won't have to have that issue

the way is already paved. Um, 

[00:27:30] Misbah: yeah, I mean, there was a few lost as well, so female game next, but the first thing that came before female was the lack of experience that I have 10, 15, 20 years of experience with me, you know, and they were like, oh, it's going to take time. It's going to take time, blah, blah, blah.

And then I, then what else do you want us to do you just want a title? I was like, no, I won this title. Myself, you know, expanding the society so that I can create more ventures. I want to, you know, open our consultancy forum and et cetera. And they were, they were, they had this on their faces except for, uh, you know, few fewer, fewer people, um, that, okay.

Alrighty. You know, a kid with a dream, you know, that, that, that kind of face. So. Which was not very motivating, but, uh, you have, if you want to do something, we have to work for it. And I guess women have to work twice as hard as men in any industry. So, yeah. 

[00:28:39] Amy: Yeah. I think especially in it or finance. That like, I don't know, maybe it's the like level of education required or I don't know what it is, but hopefully we can improve the, or increase the amount of women who are entering the cyber security industry or stem in general.

So, Um, picture lists. I am 17. I'm listening to this podcast and I'm like, wait, I going to be a C so what do I do next? 

[00:29:12] Misbah: Okay. Um, so first thing, what do you need to do is, uh, you know, just be yourself. Uh, you don't need sports. I wouldn't say this. Go and just spend all of your 24 hours doing the research and the study study study.

Um, you don't need to have all the right answers and not everything. If you don't know something, say, I'm sorry, I need to look into it and then go back and learn. There's no shame in it, you know, except acceptance. And then, uh, then you go home. So some your, you know, university from your college, when you go home, always ensure that you give one hour to yourself and half an hour to cyber security, take some time.

Search what's what's happening. What's new. Um, you know, you can download one of those apps. Like I have a cyber news just to be informed the, there. All the heads around the world and how that happened. It it's always good to know. It's always good to be up to date and it's very important cybersecurity.

And, um, always be prepared that when you are going to enter into this field, there is no there's not going to be a nine. Um, you need to be prepared for it. You can get a call in the middle of night and you have to be resilient. You have to respond at that moment and last would not see, um, don't see, you know, uh, other women with talents as a competition, but always try to see an opportunity of trade.

I see it like that. And, you know, you and what you are trading your trading knowledge and you're gaining experience. So, um, that's how it was. So the couple of advisers, uh, that I would give to anyone, uh, anyone can be the first, uh, females, uh, you know, a CSO of men can do it. You can do it as well. We have the same grain we have.

Do we just need to, you know, put in the extra effort. Indiana. They're 

[00:31:22] Amy: amazing. Yes, absolutely agree. And far as though, what would be your advice for a 17 year old who wants to be home as CSO? 

[00:31:31] Farza: So I told lingo with the Ms. Ponce, but I would say it at 17 years old, you know, it is good to aim for being a CSO.

You know, but maybe event when I would, I would definitely say that you just go in for big thing, even for Cecil, but keep a room, always keep a room for yourself. So you might get a diamond like 21. And we decided that I didn't want to be a CSO rather. I would want to an open us company for myself or open up consulting, you know, my change side of things.

So you always keep. So extra stuff and yeah, and hive, and most importantly, believe in yourself. There might be times when, when we're not doing good or, you know, if depressed or feel like not giving the best. So I would say that it will happen and it will take time. Never looks cool and always believe in yourself if set situation, could you are not doing good, a take a break and restart 

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, uh, my advice would be that. When you enter that boardroom with 20 different men, and you're the only woman you pull that seat out and you sit down cause you deserve to sit there. Um, and it does not matter. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool. And then on the flip side, then Ms.

Velez, go back to you. If I am a CSO or a woman in a higher position in cybersecurity, how can I keep that open door to help young women become cybersecurity? Yeah. 

[00:33:26] Misbah: Yeah. So, um, interestingly, um, I was Bardot she sec, and for the bottle, she said, we bought, we bought, did not know each other, but we knew each other from, she said, and, uh, I knew that she had so much potential just from the thing she was grieving.

I sparked her, I bought her dialing. So I guess, uh, and that's how she is in. Um, so I guess, uh, for women, uh, you know, in CSO roles, uh, I would suggest that be part of all of these communities, like , whatever, what, you know, in your area, um, all this be part of that, those communities you might find, you know, great people in there and, uh, You know, re communicate, build relations and, you know, speak on platforms.

Uh, let other people know you're a story you are going to inspire so many other women, you know? Um, so just keep on speaking, keep on, keep on sharing and keep on everywhere. You know, every other person know that how, how you got here, um, then you are interviewing, uh, you know, I mean it's, it's, it wouldn't be a favoritism, but it's, uh, I think we owe it to ourselves to give more chances to.

Uh, you know, build them, um, transfer the knowledge without hesitation. And I guess that's, that's the best you can do. Uh, you know, when you are interviewing, so interview as many women as you can. So that's how, that's, how you're going to open the door for them. 

[00:35:09] Amy: Hm. And Rosa versa. Um, aside from Misbah, do you have any, um, mentors or people that you look up to in the cybersecurity industry that you could share?

[00:35:22] Farza: I stayed there. There I have. I'm lucky enough that I didn't phase a gender discrimination. Yeah. I have. Um,

yeah, I missed that and I, I, I, when I joined we collected a pool of him in all. It was Pakistan. You reach out as many demands in cybersecurity, in Pakistan as much weekend. And then. Inside by many of them that you can leave it. There is, there is a third

Paula I'm side that everyone that, if you talk about any particular, you know, like cybersecurity, celebrity, or public figure, then there's a, then there's a runner for two weeks. Excellent video on technical stuff. She has a YouTube channel and there's a fire.

I, I look up to them when it comes to taking notes and learning things from your learning cost, getting, knowing each other. 

[00:36:38] Amy: Amazing. Okay. Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. Thank you guys so much for joining the podcast. I really appreciate it. And I loved our chat about women in cybersecurity. I always love to talk about this.

Um, And so Misbah, and far as that, where can we find you and what you're working on online, and everyone could 

[00:36:58] Farza: find when they didn't, my LinkedIn is not a sharp. And, uh, I'm also in three days, I suppose, R I F a R H. Yeah, you can find me, but I'm 

[00:37:12] Misbah: more active on LinkedIn. Uh, you can even find me on LinkedIn.

You can, uh, find the Ms. . And on Twitter as well. My handle is Ms. Bidart MD. Um, so I'm also like what I'm working on, what we are collectively working on is, you know, building a risk, cybersecurity, risk management tool. So it can also find you and get hub as well, if you want to know more about it. Um, so yeah.

[00:37:45] Amy: great. Thank you very much for joining the pod. Uh, you can find hacker noon online at hacker noon on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, don't forget to visit hacker noon.com to read your technical stories. And, uh, wow. Thanks for making it this far in the podcast. Don't forget to check your ego and your bias at the door.

Thank you so much. Uh, and stay weird and I'll see ya on the internet by.